Transcript for the NPR Throughline episode: The Origins of Hamas https://www.npr.org/2023/11/16/1198908227/throughline-11-16-2023 Transcribed using OpenAI's whisper (small) on 17.02.2024 https://github.com/hisano/openai-whisper-on-docker.git Quality: a few minor mistakes (e.g., "Autoturk instead of Atatürk") [00:00.000 --> 00:03.120] Listening to the news can feel like a journey. [00:03.120 --> 00:08.240] The 1A Podcast is here to guide you beyond the headlines and cut through the noise. [00:08.240 --> 00:12.000] Listen to 1A where we celebrate your freedom to listen [00:12.000 --> 00:16.880] by getting to the heart of the story together, only from NPR. [00:16.880 --> 00:21.760] The world is changing every hour and catching up once or twice a day might not be enough. [00:21.760 --> 00:26.880] For quick updates throughout your day, there's the NPR News Now Podcast. [00:26.880 --> 00:31.760] Every hour, on the hour, we bring you up to speed on the latest news from around the world [00:31.760 --> 00:37.520] in five minutes. Listen now to the NPR News Now Podcast from NPR. [00:38.160 --> 00:42.000] On the StoryCorps podcast, we believe a lot of the most interesting stories are right there [00:42.000 --> 00:46.160] in front of us, waiting to be told. So every week, we share a candid, [00:46.160 --> 00:50.160] unscripted conversation between two people around the themes of love, [00:50.160 --> 00:54.400] loss, family, and friendship. These aren't experts or celebrities, [00:54.400 --> 00:59.120] just everyday people, like you and me. Listen now to the StoryCorps podcast from NPR. [00:59.840 --> 01:06.000] On October 7th, just over a month ago, the organization Hamas, which is also the ruling [01:06.000 --> 01:11.520] government of Gaza, perpetrated a horrific attack just across the border in Israel. [01:12.320 --> 01:18.240] The Israeli government says that the attack killed around 1,200 people, most of them civilians, [01:18.240 --> 01:22.400] and Hamas also kidnapped hundreds more, including women and children, [01:22.400 --> 01:29.680] and took them back to Gaza as hostages. In response, Israel has bombarded and invaded Gaza, [01:29.680 --> 01:34.560] where, according to Gaza Health officials, more than 11,000 people have been killed [01:34.560 --> 01:40.720] and many more displaced. Since that day, we've heard from many of you, our listeners, [01:40.720 --> 01:46.320] with questions about Hamas. Who are they? What do they want? How did we get here? [01:46.960 --> 01:51.360] So we took a few weeks to talk to experts on all sides to answer those questions. [01:52.080 --> 01:56.560] People who know the history deeply and have even participated in it. [01:57.280 --> 02:03.920] And look, there's no other way to say it. It is a very hard moment right now. People are angry [02:03.920 --> 02:11.280] and confused and fighting is ongoing. And for this reason, we ask that you listen with an open mind [02:11.280 --> 02:15.360] and know that we always encourage and welcome feedback and interaction. [02:16.320 --> 02:21.920] So with that said, in this episode of Throughline, we're going to explore the origins of Hamas, [02:21.920 --> 02:25.920] the context it developed in, and how we should understand it today. [02:26.720 --> 02:31.760] And we'll start in 1987 with the event that birthed Hamas. [02:32.480 --> 02:47.520] In December 1987, a military truck driven by an Israeli citizen collided with another vehicle [02:47.520 --> 02:55.440] in Gaza near the Jabalia refugee camp. Four Palestinians died. Authorities explained it [02:55.440 --> 03:01.280] as an accident, but many Palestinians viewed it as an act of revenge for the killing of an Israeli [03:01.280 --> 03:09.280] man in Gaza days earlier. But these events were just a spark that lit a flame. In the days after, [03:09.280 --> 03:15.920] frustration and anger from Palestinians poured out in an event known as the First Intifada, [03:16.640 --> 03:17.520] or Uprising. [03:22.080 --> 03:26.320] The hostility and tension are everywhere on the streets in Arab East Jerusalem, [03:26.880 --> 03:31.520] in the shouting voices of Palestinian teenagers hurling stones at cars and soldiers. [03:36.000 --> 03:39.760] In the past month, two Palestinians were killed by Israeli sniper fire, [03:39.760 --> 03:44.960] adding to the already inflamed atmosphere. In the walkie-talkies of Israeli troops of patrol. [03:44.960 --> 03:55.200] With land, housing and potable water in short supply. In the cries of angry Palestinian women, [03:55.200 --> 03:58.000] watching as their children are arrested and taken away. [03:58.880 --> 04:14.800] We want exactly what the Israeli people enjoy, democracy, freedom and independence. [04:15.520 --> 04:22.000] Over 1,000 Palestinians and around 200 Israelis were killed in the 1987 Intifada. [04:22.800 --> 04:27.920] It's shocked the world, but for people on the ground, it was the latest event in a cycle of [04:27.920 --> 04:33.520] attack and reprisal that dated back to the establishment of the State of Israel. [04:34.720 --> 04:41.760] Here's a very simple breakdown. In 1947, the United Nations called for the division of Palestine [04:41.760 --> 04:48.160] into separate Arab and Jewish states. The idea was to create a Jewish homeland where Jews could [04:48.160 --> 04:53.680] feel safe after centuries of anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in the Holocaust. [04:54.560 --> 05:00.800] And in 1948, Israel was established. But there were already hundreds of thousands of Arab [05:00.800 --> 05:06.720] Christians and Muslims living there. Almost immediately, Israel was attacked by neighboring [05:06.800 --> 05:11.360] states who argued that the UN division of land was not fair to the Arabs. [05:12.080 --> 05:20.480] A war ensued that Israel won. Then two more wars were fought, one in 1967 and one in 1973. [05:21.280 --> 05:28.000] Israel won those wars as well. The reasons for those wars and their outcomes are very complicated. [05:28.000 --> 05:33.280] We do not have the time to go into those things here. What's important to know for our story [05:33.280 --> 05:39.600] is that those wars resulted in mass exoduses of people. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were [05:39.600 --> 05:44.560] expelled from Arab countries where they'd lived for centuries. And hundreds of thousands of [05:44.560 --> 05:50.960] Palestinians were forcibly displaced from their homes in what is now Israel. Key to the moment [05:50.960 --> 05:57.200] we're in right now is that as a result of winning these three wars, Israel gained control over the [05:57.200 --> 06:03.680] West Bank and Gaza Strip, two territories that were recognized by the United Nations as Palestinian [06:03.680 --> 06:10.560] lands. So this meant that Israel became an occupying power over more than a million Palestinians. [06:11.360 --> 06:16.880] Palestinians still had a burning desire to establish their own state. An organization in [06:16.880 --> 06:23.600] exile called FATA and its leader Yasser Arafat emerged as one of the main voices fighting for [06:23.600 --> 06:29.920] this state. FATA became the most powerful group in a coalition called the Palestine Liberation [06:29.920 --> 06:38.960] Organization, or PLO. But in 1987, at the start of the first Intifada, a new Palestinian organization [06:38.960 --> 06:46.080] was born in the Gaza Strip that would change everything. The group was called Hamas. [06:46.880 --> 06:53.280] Hamas is an acronym for the Arabic phrase for Islamic resistance movement. [06:58.080 --> 07:05.360] Hamas also happens to mean zeal or passion. This is Khaled El-Gindi. He's a senior fellow [07:05.360 --> 07:12.560] at the Middle East Institute in Washington D.C. And I'm the author of the 2019 book called Blind [07:12.560 --> 07:18.560] Spot America and the Palestinians from Balfour to Trump. Khaled also served as an advisor to the [07:18.560 --> 07:26.480] Palestinian leadership during their negotiations with Israel in 2007. Hamas' overall vision was a [07:26.480 --> 07:32.800] Palestinian state in all of the land of historical Palestine, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan [07:32.800 --> 07:38.800] River. Khaled says this goal to establish a Palestinian state was shared by other Palestinian [07:38.800 --> 07:46.000] liberation groups. But Hamas was different for one major reason. They were Islamist, whereas most [07:46.000 --> 07:53.840] of the Palestinian factions emerged in the 1950s and 60s and were either leftists, like strongly [07:53.840 --> 08:02.320] Marxist, or centrists. Hamas basically put Islam at the center of its political program. In their [08:02.320 --> 08:08.080] charter, they made it clear that it was only through Islam that Palestinians could achieve liberation. [08:08.800 --> 08:14.800] Part of what Hamas' appeal was, they didn't believe in diplomacy. They didn't believe in [08:14.800 --> 08:21.840] compromise. That's reflected in Hamas' charter published in 1988. It spells out their purpose [08:21.840 --> 08:28.000] and objectives. We've asked throughline senior producer Devin Katiyama to read from the group's [08:28.000 --> 08:33.440] founding document. There's no solution for the Palestinian question, except through Jihad. [08:34.000 --> 08:39.840] Initiatives, proposals, and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. [08:40.720 --> 08:47.920] Hamas, it is an expression of Palestinian anger, desperation, and frustration. [08:47.920 --> 08:52.400] This is Martin Kier. I'm a lecturer in international relations at the University of [08:52.400 --> 08:58.320] Sydney in Australia. He also wrote a book all about Hamas, called Hamas in Palestine, [08:58.400 --> 09:03.520] the Contested Road to Statehood. Martin says that Hamas introduced itself as an organization [09:03.520 --> 09:10.480] dedicated to both Palestinian statehood and Islamic jihad, or holy war. The Islamic resistance [09:10.480 --> 09:16.320] movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism, [09:16.320 --> 09:22.080] and a step on the road. Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, [09:22.080 --> 09:27.360] since all of these are the best equipped for the future role in the fight with the war-mongering Jews. [09:28.320 --> 09:32.960] While their charter in 1988 clearly lays all this out, Martin says we should not [09:32.960 --> 09:39.600] mistake it for some well-thought-out founding document. The people who wrote it were very insular. [09:39.600 --> 09:45.520] It was known as though the leadership of Hamas sat down and put this document together. Three [09:45.520 --> 09:52.560] people wrote it, and they'd never been outside of Gaza, never traveled. But Hamas, after that, [09:52.560 --> 09:58.960] rarely if ever mentioned its charter. The Zionist plan is limitless. [09:59.600 --> 10:04.320] After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. [10:05.040 --> 10:09.680] When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, [10:09.680 --> 10:14.160] and so on. The Hamas charter contains anti-Semitic language. [10:14.960 --> 10:18.880] Their plan is embodied in the protocols of the elders of Zion, [10:19.440 --> 10:22.560] and the present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. [10:23.680 --> 10:30.320] The first goal of Hamas is to destroy completely the state of Israel. [10:30.960 --> 10:35.440] This is David HaKham. He's a former colonel in the Israel Defense Forces, [10:35.440 --> 10:38.000] the IDF, where he served for 30 years. [10:38.720 --> 10:47.040] During my military service, I was for almost eight years in the Gaza Strip. I arrived to Gaza [10:47.600 --> 10:51.680] one year before the beginning of the first Palestinian uprising. [10:52.240 --> 10:56.320] David has written two books on Hamas and other Palestinian groups. [10:56.320 --> 11:02.080] He's a senior analyst of Arab Affairs at Miriam Institute, which is basically an Israel-focused [11:02.080 --> 11:08.160] think tank. He says that Hamas was expressly dedicated to the destruction of Israel from its [11:08.160 --> 11:14.560] inception. As a matter of fact, they are speaking in the first phase about the establishment of a [11:14.560 --> 11:19.200] Palestinian Islamic state on the ruins of the state of Israel. [11:25.840 --> 11:32.720] Ultimately, Hamas's emergence in the chaotic, bloody years of the First Intifada signaled a [11:32.720 --> 11:38.960] change in the symbolic and material direction of the Palestinian fight against occupation. [11:39.520 --> 11:47.920] It's allowed Hamas to frame their narratives that this was a saint. We are an Islamic resistance [11:47.920 --> 11:56.080] movement. And in the years after their launch, Hamas began carrying out the promise of its charter. [12:00.960 --> 12:07.920] I'm Ramteen Arablui. On this episode of Throughline from NPR, we're going to tell you the history of [12:07.920 --> 12:15.840] Hamas from multiple perspectives and try to answer a few central questions. Why did Hamas form? [12:16.480 --> 12:20.480] In what context has it evolved into the organization it is today? [12:21.200 --> 12:26.000] And what does it represent to Palestinians, Israelis, and the rest of the world? [12:26.000 --> 12:40.320] Hi, this is Patrick Cornigay Jr. calling from Washington, D.C. and you're listening to Throughline [12:40.320 --> 12:41.440] from NPR. Thanks. [12:44.240 --> 12:46.720] Part 1 Men in the Sun [12:47.600 --> 12:56.720] In 1988, Hamas was created explicitly as an Islamist organization. Now, you might be wondering what I [12:56.720 --> 13:03.840] mean by Islamist. Well, the larger context for that term goes all the way back to the early 20th [13:03.840 --> 13:10.240] century. Back then, European powers were slowly encroaching on and sometimes outright colonizing [13:10.240 --> 13:16.000] parts of the Middle East. This was a big change because since the medieval period, the Middle East [13:16.000 --> 13:22.400] and North Africa had been ruled by Muslim empires that were dominant politically, militarily, and [13:22.400 --> 13:30.000] economically on the international level. This was and is a point of historical pride for many in the [13:30.000 --> 13:36.160] Muslim world. I was reminded of it all the time growing up by people in my community. But as Europe [13:36.160 --> 13:43.200] and eventually the United States rose to power, those fortunes changed. By the 20th century, [13:43.200 --> 13:49.840] several kinds of responses to that formed. There was the leftist, anti-imperialist Marxist kind [13:49.840 --> 13:54.960] that was prevalent all over the world, think like Che Guevara. There were also secular [13:54.960 --> 14:00.640] nationalists like Autoturk and Turkey. But there was another camp that basically said the problem [14:00.640 --> 14:06.960] in the Muslim world was that Muslims weren't Muslim enough, not religious enough, that if [14:06.960 --> 14:12.080] Muslims reconnected with Islam, then perhaps they could regain the glory of the past. [14:12.720 --> 14:16.720] This worldview created movements and organizations all over the Middle East. [14:17.280 --> 14:22.720] And one of those organizations based in Egypt was called the Muslim Brotherhood. [14:22.720 --> 14:29.680] They are key in the creation of Hamas. So the Muslim Brotherhood's goal is to connect Muslims [14:29.680 --> 14:37.600] again with Islam. And once that connection is made, then the people themselves will rise up and [14:37.600 --> 14:44.960] feel a sense of collective identity. And through that, collective identity to be able to get rid of [14:45.520 --> 14:51.200] foreign occupation. Even though it was founded in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood had chapters and [14:51.200 --> 14:57.520] supporters all over the Middle East, from Saudi Arabia to Jordan to Iraq. But while the group [14:57.520 --> 15:03.040] did engage in political violence, it was different from extremist Islamist groups that we might think [15:03.040 --> 15:08.960] of today, like Al Qaeda or ISIS. The Muslim Brotherhood started out by focusing on social [15:08.960 --> 15:16.000] welfare programs and preaching. The Palestinian chapter in Gaza and the West Bank provided education, [15:16.000 --> 15:20.800] food, and other kinds of social services to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. [15:22.240 --> 15:30.160] And it would be one of its members that would help found Hamas, a guy named Sheikh Ahmed Yasin. [15:30.960 --> 15:33.840] So he was a young Palestinian, he was a quadriplegic. [15:35.440 --> 15:45.040] He was born in 1936, near the modern city of Ashkelon. Yasin came to Gaza as a refugee, [15:45.040 --> 15:50.800] like many other Palestinians, after the establishment of Israel. He was a product [15:50.800 --> 15:57.040] of the occupation. He had joined the Muslim Brotherhood as a young man in Egypt. In Gaza, [15:57.040 --> 16:03.440] he focused his efforts on Palestinian statehood. He wasn't an ideologue. Now, there's certainly [16:04.080 --> 16:08.240] that Islamic frame of reference, but you wouldn't say that he was an ideologue. [16:08.240 --> 16:14.320] There's a this very action-orientated and when I say action, it doesn't necessarily mean violence. [16:15.360 --> 16:19.200] It's a we need to we need to be the controllers for our own destiny. [16:19.920 --> 16:26.720] To do this, he founded an organization in Gaza in 1973, which was licensed to operate [16:26.720 --> 16:34.720] by the Israeli government in 1979. He came with a request from the Israeli, you know, [16:34.720 --> 16:41.600] military government in the Gaza Strip in order to bring him like the green light for the [16:41.600 --> 16:46.320] establishing of Al Mujama, Islami. This organization David's talking about, [16:46.320 --> 16:52.960] Al Mujama, Islamia, or the Islamic Center, was their precursor to Hamas. It was an offshoot [16:52.960 --> 16:58.640] of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Israeli government approved Yasin's request for the Islamic Center [16:58.640 --> 17:04.720] because it was basically a charity organization. But according to David, it did more than that. [17:05.600 --> 17:13.520] During the 80s, Al Mujama, Islami did its utmost with Sheikh Ahmed Yasin at his head to gain, [17:13.520 --> 17:22.480] you know, public support, to take control of local associations, to open, you know, mosques, [17:23.200 --> 17:28.880] so Sheikh Yasin and several other Gazans established Hamas out of the Islamic Center. [17:28.880 --> 17:35.280] Hamas was created because a number of Palestinians who believe in our resistance and this Islamist [17:35.280 --> 17:41.120] ideology created the organization. This is Tarek Bakoni. He's a scholar and president of the [17:41.120 --> 17:47.680] board of Al Shabaka, a nonprofit focused on Palestinian policy research and author of the book. [17:47.680 --> 17:51.440] Hamas contained the rise and pacification of Palestinian resistance. [17:52.240 --> 17:57.920] When Hamas was established out of that structure and it began to engage in resistance activities, [17:57.920 --> 18:02.000] like attacks on military posts and abducting Israeli soldiers. [18:02.000 --> 18:07.440] Immediately, Israel's approach to dealing with Hamas changed and it stopped being [18:07.440 --> 18:11.920] one of approval. It started being an antagonistic relationship because obviously now it's a [18:11.920 --> 18:18.640] resistance party. In retrospective, I think this was, I call it the original scene [18:18.640 --> 18:25.120] of the Israeli authorities, Israeli security authorities that did not understand that period [18:25.120 --> 18:31.520] of time what can be developed of this innocent organization movement and Mujama Islami. [18:38.800 --> 18:44.000] As the first Intifada went on, many Palestinians became more and more frustrated, [18:44.000 --> 18:50.240] not only with the occupation, but with the PLO slash Fatah as it attempted to negotiate a two [18:50.240 --> 18:57.600] state solution with Israel. The reality was that Fatah and some of the smaller parties [18:58.160 --> 19:04.960] were interested in joining a peace process that would result in a compromise situation of a West [19:04.960 --> 19:12.320] Bank and Gaza state. It's certainly by this stage, 1987, 20 years of occupation, what have [19:12.480 --> 19:20.240] the PLO done? When I say PLO, what has Fatah done? Nothing, virtually. We've been fighting for 20 [19:20.240 --> 19:25.360] years, resisting for 20 years, nothing has changed. In fact, it's actually gotten worse, [19:26.000 --> 19:29.760] where we're further away from independent state than we've ever been before. [19:30.560 --> 19:36.960] This sense of desperation and frustration among Palestinians is part of what allowed for Hamas's [19:36.960 --> 19:42.560] argument that compromise and negotiation are losing strategies, that fighting was the only [19:42.560 --> 19:48.880] way forward. And part of Hamas's appeal at this time was that their founders and members were [19:48.880 --> 19:56.080] from Gaza. They grew up there under an occupation that, according to a 1985 UN committee report, [19:56.720 --> 20:03.520] included a stagnant economy, broken communities, depleted natural resources, and violations [20:03.600 --> 20:10.640] of fundamental human rights. Meanwhile, many of the PLO slash Fatah leaders lived in exile, [20:10.640 --> 20:17.280] and in some cases, luxury. The key Fatah people, most of Fatah are living in the diaspora. They're [20:17.280 --> 20:24.000] the ones living in the four-story houses, driving around in their gold Mercedes. They're not experiencing [20:24.000 --> 20:31.200] the day-to-day privations of the occupation. Whereas Hamas, they're a product of the occupation. [20:31.200 --> 20:34.640] You can see them walking in the streets. You can see them at the market. [20:34.640 --> 20:39.760] People may not necessarily agree with their narrative as an Islamist movement. [20:39.760 --> 20:43.040] They get a lot of respect for the fact that they live amongst the community. [20:48.560 --> 20:52.640] The body of an Israeli border policeman kidnapped two days ago by the Islamic [20:52.640 --> 20:57.280] fundamentalist Hamas movement was found today in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. [20:58.000 --> 21:04.640] In 1992, Hamas carried out a plan that would set in motion a cascade of events, altering their [21:04.640 --> 21:10.720] path. They took an Israeli border policeman hostage, a man named Nisim Toledano. [21:11.360 --> 21:15.280] And he was eventually killed by the kidnappers. [21:16.080 --> 21:21.680] We don't think that it's kidnapping. It's capturing, because we are the state of the world. [21:22.480 --> 21:28.800] And we are struggling to expel our enemy from our land. This is our land. [21:29.360 --> 21:34.480] Hamas did this at a time when the PLO was starting negotiations with the Israeli government [21:34.480 --> 21:37.920] on a peace deal that could potentially create a two-state solution. [21:38.480 --> 21:43.520] Prime Minister Rabin said Hamas wanted to murder both Jews in peace, but they would not succeed. [21:44.320 --> 21:51.520] Nothing will move us from here, Rabin said, not stones, molotov cocktails, or knives, [21:51.520 --> 21:55.920] not Hamas, not the popular front for the liberation of Palestine, and not the PLO. [21:55.920 --> 22:00.480] He said, we will live here forever. Rabin said Israel would pursue the war. [22:00.480 --> 22:06.800] I was there. I was in all the meetings that took place with our Prime Minister, Itzhak Rabin. [22:07.440 --> 22:11.920] At the time, David Haqam was serving in the Israel Defense Forces, [22:11.920 --> 22:15.760] and as an advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Itzhak Rabin. [22:16.320 --> 22:23.280] And after the killing of Nisim Toledano, there was a decision taken by Itzhak Rabin as the Israeli [22:23.280 --> 22:33.200] Prime Minister to expel 415 Hamas activists from both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. [22:34.320 --> 22:39.280] During the night, security forces woke up more than 400 of the 1500 Palestinians [22:39.280 --> 22:43.520] who have been arrested in the past two days. The deportees were blindfolded, [22:43.520 --> 22:49.200] their hands bound with plastic handcuffs, and loaded onto buses which headed for the Lebanese border. [22:49.760 --> 22:55.760] It was a way of dismantling and disrupting Hamas, and it did for a time, because these were the key [22:55.760 --> 23:05.200] members of key leadership of Hamas, but it was a public relations disaster for Israel. [23:05.840 --> 23:11.440] About 400 Palestinians deported by Israel are trapped in a no-man's land in southern Lebanon. [23:11.440 --> 23:16.320] The international community found out, and it was like, well, okay, how come you're deporting [23:16.960 --> 23:26.480] 415 people? To Israel's surprise, they became a kind of cause celebrity, as these self-sacrificing, [23:26.480 --> 23:32.400] these the exiles, they represent kind of a microcosm of what the Palestinian [23:33.040 --> 23:38.480] movement is about. And it was also seen as an especially cruel move. I mean, of course, [23:38.480 --> 23:43.280] it's a violation of international law. You can't deport elements of the population. [23:43.280 --> 23:48.320] The international media starts to take more attention. What is it about Hamas? [23:48.320 --> 23:54.240] Why were these people deported? Is it a human interest or whatever? So people start to pay [23:54.240 --> 24:00.160] more attention to Hamas. Hamas has narratives. They're interviewed on international media. [24:00.160 --> 24:04.080] They get their narrative out. They get their story out for the first time, really, [24:04.080 --> 24:11.600] to the outside of the Arab world. The only one who's doing anything to help the Palestinian [24:11.600 --> 24:18.240] people, he says, is Hamas. Well, all of a sudden, you can talk to these people. And [24:18.240 --> 24:22.720] it's 10 fingers, 10 toes, two arms, two legs. They're just like me. [24:22.720 --> 24:33.520] And the other thing that happens is the Hezbollah, which is another resistance [24:33.520 --> 24:41.040] movement to Israeli occupation this time of southern Lebanon, looks after these deportees. [24:42.080 --> 24:45.840] Hezbollah is an Islamist organization based in Lebanon [24:45.840 --> 24:50.560] that was founded during the Israeli invasion of that country in the 1980s. [24:50.560 --> 24:57.600] The group is backed by Iran. Both movements see a convergence of interests in their opposition, [24:57.600 --> 25:04.080] their militant opposition to Israel. They were totally indoctrinated ideologically [25:04.800 --> 25:10.800] by Hezbollah, by Iran. I think Hamas saw Hezbollah as someone they could learn from, [25:11.760 --> 25:18.400] politically, tactically, and in other ways. Hezbollah introduces Hamas to the idea of [25:18.400 --> 25:25.280] suicide terrorism, to car bombs, a more violent resistance to Israeli occupation. [25:25.920 --> 25:31.280] It adopts the tactic of suicide bombing from Hezbollah and brings that back to Palestine [25:31.280 --> 25:36.320] when they are, when the international community essentially forces Israel to take them back in. [25:36.320 --> 25:41.440] People come back in, dribs and drabs. Israel admits that over time, okay, [25:41.440 --> 25:44.240] these 10 people were illegally deported, these five people. [25:44.880 --> 25:50.960] This was another mistake taken by Israel. I'm not speaking about the expel, [25:50.960 --> 25:53.440] I'm speaking about the coming back to the territory. [25:55.680 --> 26:00.960] Coming up, Hamas begins to put the lessons learned in Lebanon into practice. [26:01.440 --> 26:19.680] Hi, my name is Fabio Ferrari. I'm calling from New York City. You are listening to ThruLine from NPR. [26:21.920 --> 26:25.920] We just want to take a moment to shout out our ThruLine Plus subscribers. [26:25.920 --> 26:31.120] Thank you so much for your support. If you don't already know, subscribing to ThruLine Plus means [26:31.120 --> 26:37.040] you get to listen to our show without any sponsor breaks. And you also get access to special bonus [26:37.040 --> 26:41.680] episodes where we take you behind the scenes, introduce you to our amazing producers, [26:41.680 --> 26:46.800] and tell you about how we make the show. To get these awesome benefits and support our work here [26:46.800 --> 26:51.760] at NPR, head over to plus.npr.org slash ThruLine. [26:58.880 --> 27:01.760] Part two, 1994. [27:03.360 --> 27:09.600] When the first Intifada ended around 1993, the path to a potential two-state solution seemed [27:09.600 --> 27:15.840] more possible than ever. Israel and the PLO culminated months of negotiations in Oslo, [27:15.840 --> 27:20.800] Norway. It was the first agreement in what would come to be known as the Oslo Accords. [27:21.360 --> 27:26.400] The agreements recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people [27:26.400 --> 27:32.480] and called for the creation of the Palestinian Authority to handle some policing and municipal [27:32.480 --> 27:38.560] authority in some parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In exchange, they had to ensure the [27:38.560 --> 27:44.800] security of Israeli civilians from Palestinian attacks. Israel agreed to negotiate on the status [27:44.800 --> 27:49.520] of its settlements during the peace process. The terms of the deal would be implemented over the [27:49.520 --> 27:55.680] course of five years and promised further negotiations. Many in the world viewed the deal [27:55.680 --> 28:02.880] as a groundbreaking step towards a Palestinian state and towards peace. PLO leader Yasser Arafat, [28:02.880 --> 28:09.040] Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, and Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres were all given the [28:09.040 --> 28:15.760] Nobel Peace Prize for their efforts, but many in Israel and the Palestinian territories saw it [28:15.760 --> 28:20.880] completely differently. I think there's a lot of misinformation about what the Oslo Accords [28:20.880 --> 28:28.400] actually were. They certainly weren't about peace. The Oslo Accords were designed to transfer [28:28.400 --> 28:35.280] administrative control of Palestinians from the Israeli occupation to Palestinians. So it would [28:35.360 --> 28:41.280] be the Palestinian Authority who was in charge of the provision of basic services to Palestinians. [28:42.000 --> 28:46.800] Making Palestinians responsible for their own administration means that if anything goes wrong, [28:46.800 --> 28:51.840] if there are starving Palestinians, if there are Palestinians who can't access healthcare, [28:51.840 --> 28:56.080] basic services, that's not the responsibility of the occupation. That's the responsibility of [28:56.080 --> 29:00.160] the Palestinian Authority. Even though the occupation controls everything that's going on, [29:00.160 --> 29:06.400] controls all of the money that goes in. There was a lot of suspicion. It looked like, in some ways, [29:06.400 --> 29:12.480] a bad deal. But for the Palestinian public, there was this sense of, well, let's give it a chance. [29:12.480 --> 29:20.720] Let's see what happens with this peace process. Fatah signed it to get back in control of Palestinian [29:20.720 --> 29:26.880] life. The PLO had been forced out of Lebanon in 1982. They've been cast adrift. No direct contact. [29:26.960 --> 29:32.160] They'll be coming irrelevant. So Arafat was desperate to get back in control. [29:32.720 --> 29:38.480] And the suspicion grew into despair. As it became clear, the peace deal wouldn't deliver a better [29:38.480 --> 29:45.520] life for most Palestinians. It's really when the process began to falter, when the peace [29:45.520 --> 29:53.280] dividends in economic terms never actually materialized, when closures were imposed, [29:53.520 --> 29:59.600] when Israel didn't meet its commitments to withdraw from certain areas by certain deadline. [29:59.600 --> 30:07.840] Hamas has said that the Oslo Accords was the biggest betrayal of Palestinian nationalism ever. [30:08.720 --> 30:14.960] Hamas opposed the Oslo Accords from the beginning. Unlike the PLO, Hamas did not believe in [30:14.960 --> 30:20.560] compromise and negotiation. They didn't think it would make a difference. And this gave Hamas [30:20.560 --> 30:26.720] an incentive to oppose the peace deal because they feared what might happen if it were to succeed. [30:26.720 --> 30:30.960] Hamas had gained enormous support and popularity in the territories, [30:30.960 --> 30:37.520] and it was fast becoming the dominant resistance movement. And so for Hamas, it was like, well, [30:37.520 --> 30:43.280] okay, what if there's a genuine peace agreement between the PLO and Israel? Where does that put [30:43.280 --> 30:49.040] us? How are we supposed to resist? How can we be a resistance movement if there's peace? [30:52.640 --> 30:59.520] Hamas was not the only faction on either side against a peace deal. In Israel, far-right Jewish [30:59.520 --> 31:08.560] settlers also opposed the Oslo Accords. Here's why. Since 1967, hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews [31:08.560 --> 31:13.920] have created settlements on internationally recognized, occupied Palestinian territories. [31:14.720 --> 31:19.280] These settlements come in the form of villages, towns, and full-blown suburbs. [31:19.920 --> 31:24.880] Many of these settlements are sanctioned by the Israeli government and protected by police and [31:24.880 --> 31:30.720] military. They have become so extensive that they've essentially carved the West Bank into a [31:30.720 --> 31:37.120] collection of small territories separated by Jewish settlements. This was and is a major [31:37.120 --> 31:43.120] source of tension in the conflict on both sides. And when the Oslo Accords were being negotiated, [31:43.120 --> 31:47.920] some of those Israeli settlers feared their settlements could be dismantled as part of an [31:47.920 --> 31:54.880] agreement. So in 1994, one of those settlers did something that would change the course of the [31:54.880 --> 32:05.040] conflict. There's the cave of the patriarchs in Hebron. Hebron is a Palestinian city in the West [32:05.040 --> 32:12.720] Bank. It's about 17 miles southwest of Jerusalem, which is sacred to both Jews and Muslims. There'd [32:12.720 --> 32:20.800] be events, religious events, significant events for both Jews and Palestinians. And on one of those [32:22.080 --> 32:28.080] days where it was a Palestinian or Muslim holy day, there was an American Jewish settler, [32:28.800 --> 32:36.400] Baruch Goldstein. He walked into the mosque during dawn prayers while there were, you know, [32:37.120 --> 32:41.680] the mosques were full. It was Ramadan. So there was quite a large number of worshipers. [32:42.320 --> 32:49.120] And he gunned down 29 people in the middle of the mosque. Baruch Goldstein was celebrated by a small [32:49.120 --> 32:57.200] minority in Israel. And for Hamas, this event also had a radical impact. That was a turning point [32:57.200 --> 33:06.320] for Hamas. They switched to attacking civilians. So after 1994 is when we see, you know, when they [33:07.280 --> 33:14.000] attack a bus, for example, or a cafe, something along those lines, and they blow up large numbers [33:14.000 --> 33:26.400] of civilians. A bomb exploded today on a crowded downtown bus in Tel Aviv. It was one of the worst [33:26.400 --> 33:31.840] terrorist attacks in Israel's history, and it was the third strike against Israeli targets in less [33:31.840 --> 33:40.480] than two weeks. On October 19th, 1994, a member of Hamas named Saleh Abdel Rahim Alsawi boarded a [33:40.480 --> 33:47.600] bus on a very busy street in Tel Aviv. He carried with him massive explosives. He rode the bus to a [33:47.600 --> 33:55.360] busy area with cafes and pedestrians. At 9 a.m., he detonated the explosive. The massive blast [33:55.360 --> 34:01.680] lifted the bus off the ground and ripped it apart, eviscerating passengers. 21 Israeli [34:01.680 --> 34:07.840] citizens and one Dutch citizen were killed. An anonymous caller to Israel radio claimed [34:07.840 --> 34:13.040] responsibility for today's bombing in the name of Hamas, the Islamic militant group. [34:13.040 --> 34:19.360] The attack shocked Israelis. The Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin, promised a tough response. [34:19.360 --> 34:25.200] We cannot fight these barbarians with silk gloves, he said. All measures are foreseeable. [34:25.760 --> 34:33.440] Hamas uses that moment to really change the scale and the type of its resistance and to begin [34:33.440 --> 34:40.400] carrying out operations against Israeli civilians as a way of instilling a form of deterrence [34:40.400 --> 34:45.280] against Israeli occupying forces, basically saying, if you kill Palestinian civilians, [34:45.280 --> 34:52.240] your civilians will also die. And it's very shocking for Palestinians. There's a lot of debate [34:52.240 --> 34:59.600] within Hamas about the utility of these. If we do this, there's no coming back from this. [35:00.160 --> 35:06.640] The bus bombing in October of 1994 was one of Hamas's first attacks on civilians. It would [35:06.640 --> 35:12.800] not be their last. That year, there were six suicide bombings in a span of several months [35:12.880 --> 35:20.160] and even more attacks in cafes, shopping malls, and events. At the time, David Haqam was serving [35:20.160 --> 35:26.320] in the Israel Defense Forces. He challenges the idea that the Hebron massacre was the main reason [35:26.320 --> 35:32.960] for Hamas's move towards attacking civilians. Instead, he says, Hamas carried out these attacks [35:32.960 --> 35:39.040] to derail the Oslo peace process, because ultimately they opposed the two-state solution, [35:39.040 --> 35:44.000] not because they didn't want a Palestinian state, but because they refused to recognize [35:44.000 --> 35:52.000] Israel's right to exist. The main reason behind these activities was in order to spoil [35:53.280 --> 36:00.240] and to harm the Oslo process between Israel and the PLO. This was the main reason. [36:00.960 --> 36:07.920] Hamas was able to capitalize on that despairing of the peace process. Of course, Hamas also [36:07.920 --> 36:15.360] contributed to that despairing by its campaign of attacking civilians and almost always, [36:15.360 --> 36:23.840] of course, triggered an Israeli harsh response, mass arrests, harsh treatment, internal closures, [36:23.840 --> 36:27.840] preventing movement and access. That really decimated the Palestinian economy. [36:29.280 --> 36:33.760] It was part of the way Hamas could disrupt any progress. [36:38.320 --> 36:45.760] Coming up, another bloodier Intifada, and Hamas finds its way to power. [36:52.640 --> 36:59.040] Hi from Knoxville, Tennessee. This is Mary and you are listening to Throughline from NPR. [36:59.440 --> 37:10.480] After the end of the first Intifada and the signing of the Oslo Accords, extreme [37:10.480 --> 37:15.760] factions on both sides seemed to keep inflaming tensions and undermining the peace process. [37:16.480 --> 37:22.160] In 1995, an Israeli right-wing extremist assassinated Prime Minister Itzhak Rabin. [37:22.960 --> 37:29.360] By 1997, Hamas had carried out more than a dozen attacks against Israeli civilians, [37:29.360 --> 37:35.920] killing hundreds. Meanwhile, Israel continued to occupy the West Bank and Gaza Strip, [37:35.920 --> 37:40.320] being accused by many, including Amnesty International of repression. [37:41.120 --> 37:46.640] Also, illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian territories continued to expand. [37:47.440 --> 37:53.840] And by 2000, it all boiled over in the second Palestinian Intifada, or uprising. [37:54.560 --> 37:59.600] Unlike the first Intifada, the second Intifada was very bloody from the get-go, [37:59.600 --> 38:03.920] even though Palestinian resistance began similar to how the first Intifada began, [38:03.920 --> 38:08.720] which is through popular mobilization. This was met with enormous use of force [38:09.600 --> 38:17.760] by the Israeli occupying forces, and so the Palestinian Intifada militarized very quickly. [38:18.400 --> 38:24.480] Hamas' violent escalation inspired other Palestinian groups to do the same. Soon, [38:24.480 --> 38:31.120] Fatah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad were all conducting attacks inside Israel on civilians. [38:32.240 --> 38:36.800] Eventually, Israel responded with a massive invasion of the West Bank. [38:36.880 --> 38:42.320] They destroyed infrastructure and devastated the population, killing thousands of civilians. [38:43.120 --> 38:48.880] This was happening in a post-911 world, where the Israelis successfully, [38:48.880 --> 38:54.720] to an American public and administration, argued that they were fighting their own al-Qaeda, [38:54.720 --> 38:59.680] that they were fighting their own war on terror, which justified its heavy-handedness. [39:00.320 --> 39:04.720] During this time, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, the founder of Hamas, [39:04.720 --> 39:08.800] was assassinated by missiles shot from an Israeli attack helicopter. [39:09.600 --> 39:14.000] Many other members of Hamas' leadership relocated to neighboring countries. [39:14.000 --> 39:20.960] They were losing fighters. And by 2005, their suicide attacks in Israel had considerably slowed [39:20.960 --> 39:28.160] down. That same year, Israel's Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, a man widely seen as a hardliner [39:28.160 --> 39:33.760] and supporter of Israeli settlements, pulled all of Israel's military forces and settlements [39:33.760 --> 39:37.760] out of the Gaza Strip, a move that surprised everyone. [39:37.760 --> 39:42.560] This was a huge step and was quite controversial inside Israel. [39:42.560 --> 39:44.640] This is Khaled al-Gindi again. [39:44.640 --> 39:50.240] The calculation that Sharon had made was the settlement project in Gaza was a losing bet. [39:50.240 --> 39:57.840] You had six, seven thousand Israeli settlers living among one and a half million Palestinians. [39:58.720 --> 40:05.360] Demographically, it was a losing prospect. So let's cut our losses in Gaza. [40:05.360 --> 40:09.440] David Haqam says that this move was a huge mistake for Israel. [40:10.000 --> 40:15.200] Ramin, it was only one-sided decision taken by Israel. [40:16.000 --> 40:19.760] With no Palestinian, I would say, partner. [40:20.960 --> 40:27.840] This was, I would say, a great, great, a big, big mistake taken by the Israeli government. [40:28.400 --> 40:36.640] And as a matter of fact, it late, late run to the taking control of Hamas in the Gaza Strip area [40:36.640 --> 40:41.280] entered to the situation that we are witnessing nowadays. [40:42.160 --> 40:46.320] Some critics claim that Sharon did this in order to freeze the peace process. [40:46.960 --> 40:52.000] In that same year, 2005, Hamas also made a controversial move. [40:52.000 --> 40:59.360] They decided to begin participating in elections against FATA, the ruling organization in the PLO. [40:59.360 --> 41:06.560] There is a strong argument that any participation in these elections legitimizes these Israeli [41:06.560 --> 41:12.560] constructions from the Oslo Accords and we just become complicit in the administration of the [41:12.560 --> 41:17.680] occupation. But the people, other people say we know this is our chance to get our narrative [41:17.680 --> 41:24.240] out there to the international community. I think they see an avenue for power through [41:24.240 --> 41:30.080] the official channels that exist. And they campaign really well. FATA does not campaign well. [41:30.080 --> 41:35.440] They're very fractured. They do better than anyone expected, probably better than even they expected. [41:36.000 --> 41:42.080] And I think they were hoping to be the kind of significant minority and be the opposition [41:42.080 --> 41:46.240] block. But they ended up with a majority of the seats in the parliament, [41:46.240 --> 41:50.560] which allowed them to form a government entirely on their own. [41:51.600 --> 41:57.040] The U.S. had actually pushed the Palestinian Authority to hold the elections. And the day [41:57.040 --> 42:03.280] after President George W. Bush congratulated the Palestinian people on a free and fair election. [42:04.000 --> 42:06.080] But as for the results of that election. [42:06.960 --> 42:11.520] Israel and the United States says absolutely not. Condoleezza Rice. [42:11.520 --> 42:14.160] She was the Secretary of State at that time. [42:14.160 --> 42:19.920] In her memoir says that she accepts that Hamas has won the election, [42:19.920 --> 42:25.760] but she cannot accept their program. Hamas can change or fail is essentially [42:25.760 --> 42:29.520] the Bush administration's strategy towards Hamas. [42:29.520 --> 42:34.400] The U.S. had designated Hamas a terrorist organization in 1997. [42:34.400 --> 42:37.680] So they put a set of demands on them after they won the election. [42:37.680 --> 42:42.320] If they met the conditions, then the government of Palestine will continue to receive foreign aid [42:42.320 --> 42:48.960] from the United States and its European allies. Renounced violence, recognize Israel, [42:48.960 --> 42:55.600] accept all previous agreements. Rice says in her memoir, they knew that Hamas would reject them. [42:56.240 --> 43:01.200] And that's exactly what happened. Hamas did not meet the U.S.'s demands. [43:01.920 --> 43:07.520] So the U.S., E.U. and Israel essentially boycotted the new Hamas-controlled government. [43:08.240 --> 43:14.000] Immediately Israel imposed an economic and political siege on Gaza. [43:14.880 --> 43:18.560] They stopped all the work permits from Gazans into Israel. [43:18.560 --> 43:29.200] That creates this dilemma. There is very dire economic consequences and there's a crisis internally [43:29.200 --> 43:34.400] because Palestinians are looking for a way out of the situation. [43:35.200 --> 43:40.800] This put immense pressure on the Palestinian Authority and its president, Mahmoud Abbas, [43:40.800 --> 43:45.360] to cancel the results of the elections. This would mean they'd have to forcibly remove [43:45.360 --> 43:51.120] Hamas from power in order to keep the West Bank and Gaza Strip from completely falling apart under [43:51.120 --> 43:57.680] the weight of the boycott. Obviously Hamas did not like this idea because they'd won the elections [43:57.680 --> 44:05.600] fair and square. This crisis caused rising tension between Hamas and Fatah and by 2007 [44:05.600 --> 44:10.960] they were on the verge of a civil war. That's when Saudi Arabia, as one of the most powerful [44:11.040 --> 44:16.880] countries in the Arab world, stepped in to mediate. They called together the two sides in Mecca where [44:16.880 --> 44:22.880] they convinced Hamas to do what was for them the unthinkable. They come out with the Mecca [44:22.880 --> 44:29.200] Agreement which is a unity government between Fatah and Hamas. And in that Mecca Agreement [44:30.160 --> 44:36.000] Hamas says that it will respect their previous agreement signed by the PLO. [44:36.640 --> 44:42.160] The moves show that Hamas was willing to compromise on its hard-line beliefs to some extent. [44:42.160 --> 44:45.360] We don't like that Israel's there but we can't ignore it. [44:45.360 --> 44:51.040] But they stopped short of explicitly recognizing the state of Israel. So Israel and the US did [44:51.040 --> 44:54.880] not accept the solution that came out of the Mecca negotiations. [44:54.880 --> 45:01.200] Now Israel cannot accept the unity government. The United States refused the Bush Administration, [45:01.200 --> 45:05.120] refuses any palace to recognize any Palestinian government with Hamas in it. [45:05.120 --> 45:11.360] So Hamas fears that there will be a coup and they'll be overthrown. So they strike first in Gaza. [45:11.360 --> 45:17.760] And so there was fighting between Mahmoud Abbas' loyal forces and Hamas. [45:17.760 --> 45:24.480] A civil war broke out between Hamas and Fatah. It was bloody. Hamas channeled its military [45:24.480 --> 45:32.880] power and viciousness against fellow Palestinians. Hamas threw and kicked out, removed the government [45:32.880 --> 45:40.080] of unity and took control, total control of the Gaza Strip. It was in June 2007. [45:40.800 --> 45:46.240] When Hamas took control, Israel responded by executing a blockade of the Gaza Strip. [45:46.880 --> 45:52.720] This means that they control how much food, water and electricity the people of Gaza have access to. [45:53.600 --> 45:59.120] What Israel began doing was to limit the entry and exit of people and goods. [45:59.120 --> 46:04.800] Which meant that if you were living in Gaza, you will not be able to leave the Gaza Strip [46:04.800 --> 46:08.720] unless you get a permit. And those permits are almost impossible to get. [46:09.520 --> 46:15.600] The entry of food into the Gaza Strip is restricted. And there was a policy at the early [46:15.600 --> 46:20.960] years of the blockade by Israeli governments to count the number of calories that would go into [46:20.960 --> 46:27.200] the Gaza Strip. To make sure that the population there isn't starved, but to maintain them just [46:27.200 --> 46:34.320] above what is the humanitarian catastrophe. The fuel that's needed for electricity generation [46:34.320 --> 46:39.760] is restricted and rationed. So essentially to strangle Gaza, so it doesn't survive, [46:39.760 --> 46:45.440] but it also doesn't collapse. So it's maintained in that state. The blockade is [46:46.880 --> 46:53.360] a form of collective punishment. What Tariq means by collective punishment is that the blockade [46:53.360 --> 46:59.120] punishes all Gazans, about half of whom are children, for the actions of Hamas. [47:00.000 --> 47:05.440] During the last 16 years of the blockade, Gaza has become one of the most densely populated [47:05.440 --> 47:10.960] places on earth and is one of the poorest, with an unemployment rate of nearly 50%. [47:12.400 --> 47:17.840] Meanwhile, Israel has become per capita one of the richest countries on the planet, [47:18.400 --> 47:23.360] with a population that enjoys a quality of life on par with most countries in Europe. [47:24.240 --> 47:30.800] Yet it's also true that Hamas, during the last 16 years of the blockade, has expanded tunnels [47:30.800 --> 47:36.640] underneath the ground in Gaza to sneak in food and supplies from Egypt, store weapons, [47:36.640 --> 47:42.880] and to attack Israel. One of Hamas's biggest financial and military supporters during this [47:42.880 --> 47:51.600] time has been Iran. Iran is trying to capitalize on Pan-Muslim sentiment with regard to Jerusalem [47:51.600 --> 48:00.080] and the holy places. They see the Arab states as having essentially surrendered to Israel and that [48:00.080 --> 48:08.880] they are the true champions of Jerusalem and the Palestinian cause. And so it's part of how Iran [48:08.880 --> 48:13.200] projects its power and legitimacy in the broader Arab and Muslim world. [48:14.080 --> 48:18.880] US officials have said there is not much direct evidence that Iran actually helped [48:18.880 --> 48:25.680] plan Hamas's attack on October 7th. But there is no denying that they have given Hamas weapons [48:25.680 --> 48:31.120] and money over the last 16 years. And they weren't the only ones sending money to Gaza. [48:31.920 --> 48:37.440] Israeli news reports and analysts say that Qatar has provided over a billion dollars. [48:38.080 --> 48:44.560] And this is what David Haqam claims is the problem. Hamas has been more focused on fighting [48:44.560 --> 48:51.440] than on the needs of the Palestinian people. I'll tell you frankly, here we have to put the [48:51.440 --> 49:00.960] blame on Hamas government in Gaza. They were taking a lot of money coming, but Hamas used it in order [49:00.960 --> 49:11.120] to develop its military capabilities against Israel. Hamas is in control of Gaza. And Hamas [49:11.120 --> 49:17.520] doesn't take any step in order to improve the situation of living, the standard of living [49:17.520 --> 49:25.360] of the Palestinians. They are doing the opposite. They are concentrating on fighting against Israel. [49:25.600 --> 49:33.040] Over the last 16 years, Israel and Hamas have fought multiple wars. But there's also evidence [49:33.040 --> 49:39.680] that they've cooperated. In fact, according to the Jerusalem Post, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin [49:39.680 --> 49:45.680] Netanyahu in 2019 told a private meeting with fellow members of his political party [49:45.680 --> 49:51.440] that his government had allowed funds from Qatar to reach Gaza because it was part of a broader [49:51.520 --> 49:57.280] strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate and to ostensibly prevent [49:57.280 --> 50:04.400] the formation of a Palestinian state. Meanwhile, the suffering of the Gaza population under the [50:04.400 --> 50:11.760] blockade and Hamas has only increased. There have been no elections in that time. Hamas has ruled [50:11.760 --> 50:18.000] with an iron fist, not allowing for dissent. Many of their leaders live in exile and in luxury, [50:18.000 --> 50:25.360] like the PLO leadership did before them. But ultimately, Tarek Barconi says that this story [50:25.360 --> 50:32.320] isn't really just about Hamas. That in the end, Hamas is a symptom of a larger problem. [50:34.560 --> 50:38.560] The issue isn't Hamas. The issue is always the Palestinian political demands. [50:40.400 --> 50:44.960] The Palestinian demands for return, the Palestinian demands for self-determination. [50:44.960 --> 50:52.960] This is what's troubling Israeli authorities. The Palestinian liberation project, [50:52.960 --> 50:58.080] like any liberation project, is diverse and multifaceted. Hamas is one faction in that. [51:00.320 --> 51:05.280] Let's say in an ideal world from the Israeli perspective, Hamas is removed from the equation. [51:06.000 --> 51:11.680] There will be an organization committed to armed resistance for the liberation of Palestine [51:11.680 --> 51:16.640] emerging the day after. [51:42.000 --> 51:43.200] Anya Steinberg [51:43.200 --> 51:44.400] Casey Miner [51:44.400 --> 51:45.360] Kristina Kim [51:45.360 --> 51:46.640] Devin Karayama [51:46.640 --> 51:48.560] Peter Balanon Rosen [51:52.320 --> 51:58.080] Fact-checking for this episode was done by Kevin Vogel. The episode was mixed by Josh Newell. [51:59.040 --> 52:06.880] Music for this episode was composed by me and my band Drop Electric, which includes Anya Mizzani [52:06.880 --> 52:08.080] Naveed Marvi [52:08.080 --> 52:09.120] Show Fujiwara [52:09.840 --> 52:18.160] Thank you to Rand-Abdel-Fattah, Johannes Dergi, Larry Kaplow, Aya Batrawi, Tony Kavan, and Anya Grunman. [52:19.200 --> 52:23.120] And as always, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, [52:23.120 --> 52:36.720] please write us at thru-line at npr.org. Thanks for listening. [52:37.200 --> 52:46.880] This message comes from MSNBC. This Black History Month joined Tremaine Lee as he asks, [52:46.880 --> 52:50.880] What if millions of black Americans had been repaid for slavery? [52:50.880 --> 52:58.000] Into America presents Uncounted Millions, The Power of Reparations. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. [52:58.720 --> 53:05.040] This message comes from Ripple, a new investigative podcast that returns to the scene of major events [53:05.040 --> 53:11.440] and discovers the long-term impacts that have been raging, unnoticed for years. Listen to Ripple [53:11.440 --> 53:13.360] wherever you listen to podcasts.